Nirach's Blogs
Wit from the mind!
Dumbing down, are we?
As time goes by I'm seeing a lot of people complain about games dumbing down their content.
A prime, recent, example of such an accusation would be the lack of an inventory in Mass Effect 2. Another would be the lack of an inventory system in Bioshock.
Admittedly, not the biggest fan of Bioshock here, but Mass Effect 2 is an entirely different matter.
I think, with this game, we asked for it. The first game brought no end of complaints about the fussy micromanagement of armour suits, weapons, and addons for the armour and weapons. People moaned that they were forever changing parts out for the best combination and the best stats.
Then Mass Effect 2 comes along and pretty much threw all that away. You have a very limited number of weapons, and a very limited number of potential armour pieces. Weapons are not upgraded indvidually, but rather as a class of weapon. Pistols, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Submachine Guns, Heavy Weapons and of course, Sniper Rifles. Each one has a couple of upgrade chains that're possible, damage, ammo capacity and so on. Armour is much the same, there are numerous upgrades, and numerous paths you can choose to take.
However, that is where the management ends. You upgrade it, it upgrades everything. Everyone has the same weapons, and that's it. There's nothing more - Yet, there's no reason for us to complain. We asked for it, we got what we asked for, and it was done exceptionally well. It removed the slightly more time consuming, slightly more irritating, aspect of Mass Effect.
Some of you say that this is to a games detriment, that we as the player, don't get to decide when and how to use something. But is that really that important?
What would you do with an inventory of upgrades and parts? Change them out and around until you have the best combination for your characters?
Inventories are still an important part of my gaming experience, depending on setting. Take Dragon Age for example. That, for me, would be utterly ruined by the lack of an inventory system. You're a small group of people, in theory, constantly on the move with no massive ship to just stash stuff in. You don't have, theoretically, unlimited space. You have to pick and choose what you're going to carry, and what your squad is going to wear, and of course, what you're going to sell to the local trader. Your space is finite because of your setting.
Arguably the same could be said for Mass Effect 2, and the Normandy. Yes, you'd run out of space eventually, but is it so hard to believe that your ships crew, those NPCs that make such mindless diaglogue and tend to sit around doing a fat lot of sod all, would clean up after you? Your scene is set as the commander of a ship, the commander of a crew. I hardly see Shepard 'pitting in' with the crew to clean and maintain the ship - He/She's too busy saving the galaxy.
Of course, in Dragon Age you're saving the world, but you're walking around with a theoretical backpack, and pockets. You don't have a crew of NPCs, you don't have a ship, you have to look after your own shit, and your parties shit - Because it's on your back.
I don't think the gaming industry is "dumbing down" - For the most part, I think it's streamlining. Removing, where possible, the mindless tasks that could easily and reasonably be automated.
Of course, there are examples to the contrary - Bioshock for one - But I believe these to be, simply, bad examples of streamlining. There is no plausability to the scenario, and its lacking of an inventory, and that is a failing. Dumbing down, no, but failure to streamline effectively? Yes. Removing a chore to allow focus on the gameplay is great, of course it is, but not at the expense of immersion. We asked for this, remember.
A prime, recent, example of such an accusation would be the lack of an inventory in Mass Effect 2. Another would be the lack of an inventory system in Bioshock.
Admittedly, not the biggest fan of Bioshock here, but Mass Effect 2 is an entirely different matter.
I think, with this game, we asked for it. The first game brought no end of complaints about the fussy micromanagement of armour suits, weapons, and addons for the armour and weapons. People moaned that they were forever changing parts out for the best combination and the best stats.
Then Mass Effect 2 comes along and pretty much threw all that away. You have a very limited number of weapons, and a very limited number of potential armour pieces. Weapons are not upgraded indvidually, but rather as a class of weapon. Pistols, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Submachine Guns, Heavy Weapons and of course, Sniper Rifles. Each one has a couple of upgrade chains that're possible, damage, ammo capacity and so on. Armour is much the same, there are numerous upgrades, and numerous paths you can choose to take.
However, that is where the management ends. You upgrade it, it upgrades everything. Everyone has the same weapons, and that's it. There's nothing more - Yet, there's no reason for us to complain. We asked for it, we got what we asked for, and it was done exceptionally well. It removed the slightly more time consuming, slightly more irritating, aspect of Mass Effect.
Some of you say that this is to a games detriment, that we as the player, don't get to decide when and how to use something. But is that really that important?
What would you do with an inventory of upgrades and parts? Change them out and around until you have the best combination for your characters?
Inventories are still an important part of my gaming experience, depending on setting. Take Dragon Age for example. That, for me, would be utterly ruined by the lack of an inventory system. You're a small group of people, in theory, constantly on the move with no massive ship to just stash stuff in. You don't have, theoretically, unlimited space. You have to pick and choose what you're going to carry, and what your squad is going to wear, and of course, what you're going to sell to the local trader. Your space is finite because of your setting.
Arguably the same could be said for Mass Effect 2, and the Normandy. Yes, you'd run out of space eventually, but is it so hard to believe that your ships crew, those NPCs that make such mindless diaglogue and tend to sit around doing a fat lot of sod all, would clean up after you? Your scene is set as the commander of a ship, the commander of a crew. I hardly see Shepard 'pitting in' with the crew to clean and maintain the ship - He/She's too busy saving the galaxy.
Of course, in Dragon Age you're saving the world, but you're walking around with a theoretical backpack, and pockets. You don't have a crew of NPCs, you don't have a ship, you have to look after your own shit, and your parties shit - Because it's on your back.
I don't think the gaming industry is "dumbing down" - For the most part, I think it's streamlining. Removing, where possible, the mindless tasks that could easily and reasonably be automated.
Of course, there are examples to the contrary - Bioshock for one - But I believe these to be, simply, bad examples of streamlining. There is no plausability to the scenario, and its lacking of an inventory, and that is a failing. Dumbing down, no, but failure to streamline effectively? Yes. Removing a chore to allow focus on the gameplay is great, of course it is, but not at the expense of immersion. We asked for this, remember.
Feb 8, 2010 . 10:50:18
+sawdustprophet
Plays With His Wii
I always felt that the larger controversy was the types of inventory...weight/mass based, single-slot (eg stack) based, or the hybrid "grid" system. Of course, each one of these has its advantages and unrealities (case in point: storing your mount in your backpack in WoW...which granted, has since been done away with).
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Fourth Floor: Tools, Guns, Keys to Super Weapons.
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Obviously there are inherently degrees of reality with any inventory system - Your example of WoW and its mount storage, for example.
Another example would be Neverwinter Nights and its Infinite bags of holding - The ones with no encumbrance penalty no matter the contents.
Where is the line drawn in reality, though? I mean, do you allow stacking in a grid system because the items are of the same type, or do you go with the realism approach and force every single item to its own slot?
Obviously the hybrid system of grid + stacking is the most preferable to players (See Sacred and its forums of people moaning about bag size), but does pandering to players always end well?
Which brings me back to the lack of inventory systems in leading RPGs - No doubt Bioshock 2 won't have one, and well, the sales alone will present that as a 'leading' RPG.
I think the situation is more complicated than most people give it credit for.
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
+sawdustprophet
Plays With His Wii
It's the type of player, too. The hybrid grid system is probably the closest to realism, but it's hard for casual players to make use of, unless they're also Tetris addicts. It's striking that balance between simplicity and reality that's hard.
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Fourth Floor: Tools, Guns, Keys to Super Weapons.
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Yes, very true.
And people said we'd never learn anything by playing Tetris.
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
+sawdustprophet
Plays With His Wii
It is also a useful skill for loading package cars >_>
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Fourth Floor: Tools, Guns, Keys to Super Weapons.
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Ahh, yes.
Do you colour your boxes to match Tetris colours though?
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
+sawdustprophet
Plays With His Wii
...no. That...sounds a little OCD, mang.
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Fourth Floor: Tools, Guns, Keys to Super Weapons.
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Oh.
I don't either >.>
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
+sawdustprophet
Plays With His Wii
Of course not. You're far too disorganized for that. <_<
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Fourth Floor: Tools, Guns, Keys to Super Weapons.
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Damn right!
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
~baseballpunt
Code Possum
I loved the inventory in ME 1, I sat around customizing pieces to make the game MORE difficult, like giving Ashley a single shot overheat sniper, and then forcing the AI out into the fight by themselves to laugh at their fail. I prefer games to have micromanagement in them, simply because I immerse myself into them. Never do I (or understand why other people do) speed through campaigns.
As for the inventory system, I have yet to see one that I liked more than the Resident Evil pack. Sure it was too small half the time, but the grid I loved it! I felt like I knew the characters strength, and shuffling pieces around in order for them to fit? Pure Deliciousness...
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"We will rule over this land and call it... 'This land'" - Wash
Baseballpunt - Xbox Live
Krakmissle - Toribash
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Haha, yes, there was that aspect to it.
Even so, eventually you get enough kit (On multiple play throughs) to kit everyone out exactly the same in ME1.
I agree about the Resi inventory system, but I liked it because it added a level of reality and fear - Can you carry enough herbs and ammo to deal death to the zombie horde?
Very good system for the game, an almost hybrid grid system. Given that some things stack, while others don't.
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
~MaverickKing
Remembers What Arcades Are
Loved RE's inventory. Hated that they did away with it in RE5 but then again, they couldn't really do it if they were going for the realtime co op but still... Very sorely missed.
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With each passing day, the world finds new and exciting ways to kill a man.
~baseballpunt
Code Possum
Yeah, We're gonna have to wait till Natal if we want to have a 'Searchable' inventory, not to mention the first ever full martial-arts games... *has nerdgasm*
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"We will rule over this land and call it... 'This land'" - Wash
Baseballpunt - Xbox Live
Krakmissle - Toribash
~MaverickKing
Remembers What Arcades Are
No...Way...
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With each passing day, the world finds new and exciting ways to kill a man.
~Hoobatsch
Recovering WoW Addict
Amen Bruddah. Preach on!
for example there is not only a party camp screen replete with baggage train, but also they have warriors peak or whatever its called. A very satisfying home base, and a good piece of in game buy-age.
's iventory system for me to be a bit restrictive, in that I want to play, not have to constantly go back to camp to sell all the shit I get, because im greedy for teh GOLDZ!
I will say there are games with annoying elements, that I think older games handled well. for example inventory management in Dungeon Siege, where you could buy a pack horse to increase your loot carrying was a genius idea.
Frankly I think Games (big G for industry) need to get back to the idea that they're meant to be -fun-.
I think RPG's need to have the idea of a "Party camp" screen where they can off load shit. in DA
Or perhaps more regular vendors. I find DA
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Heresy grows from idleness.
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
There are so many examples of well done inventories - And that's why a poor inventory system irritates me so much. Neverwinter Nights, for example, drove me round the bend with its infinite bags of holding - Inside other bags. Bags inside bags do not make more space, as I'm sure you know
does need slightly more frequent vendors, or a "quick sell" button somewhere. Sacred 2 does this, you can sell things without being at a vendor, but for a reduced sale price (Presumably to cover the inconvenience of the transport of the goods). I liked that system, and for quite a number of RPGs, I could see it working very nicely.
I agree, though, that a "party camp" would be a welcome addition to any RPG that doesn't see you roaming around in a large vehicle (Which, in theory, could be considered a party camp of sorts). There's plenty of items in some games that I want to keep because they're rare, but because they're so low level, they're utterly pointless. Sacred and Sacred 2 are good examples of this. You have your bag, and your chest - But there's about enough space for a few weapons and a few suits of armour. Given the number of rare sets of armour you can get, and the way the games difficulty works (Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Niobium etc etc), you can't really use even Gold difficulty kit in a Niobium game, you are going to die. A lot. But you still would want to keep the set, because it's bloody difficult to complete - I spent several weeks collecting one of the Seraphim unique sets, even though within another week, it was completely useless.
Yes, DA
Any hey, we're all greedy for the gold
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
$Halcyon
Haly
Nice, mate. Nice.
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i haz dice. it r0llz 20. j00 l00ze.
Haly
$spot
Supreme Commander
Very well written. You should write articles more.
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"This is no time for ease and comfort. It is time to dare and endure." - Winston Churchill
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
"Should" is only a suggestion
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
$spot
Supreme Commander
How else should I put it? It is a suggestion.
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"This is no time for ease and comfort. It is time to dare and endure." - Winston Churchill
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
That's precise my point. It's a suggestion, only a suggestion
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
$spot
Supreme Commander
I'm lost. Ok
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"This is no time for ease and comfort. It is time to dare and endure." - Winston Churchill
+chillinvillain
Is In Your Base, Killing Your Mans
things that drove me nuts in ME1 that have been rectified in ME2
Landing on shittons of planets just to find side missions (such as finding Tali the special geth settlement).
Decrypting salvage.
Maintaining an inventory (specifically of countless armor/weapon upgrades).
Maintaining squad upgrades (weapon/armor upgrades).
things that I liked from ME1 that were taken out in ME2
Lots of guns. (They've gone the BFG route which is okay with me, but tbh I am super conservative with my BFGs in EVERY game I play, and I don't find that they add very much so the reduction of other guns at the expense of several heavy weapons was kinda disappointing)
Lots of armor. (lateral move to piece by piece was ok, but having half the pieces exclusive to special orders/codes is bullshit)
Loot other than credits from minigames.
Loot from NPCs (this could have been reduced to a "make sense" point rather than removed imo)
Over all I enjoyed the changes and don't find the game dumbed down but moved from a TPS-RPG-RTS style game with insane amounts of micromanagement needed, to a quick pace TPS-RPG with an increased focus on your story and maintaining a good balance of secondary story arcs and missions to pursue.
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"We aren't allowed to say brainstorm where I work because it's apparently offensive to people with cerebal palsy (bullshit)." --Chalkley3
$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Agreed, entirely.
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
ѻIrishancest
Legally Certified Warthog Operator
I'm going to have to disagree with you about inventory in Mass Effect 2. I, for one, never complained about the system in the first game, indeed i quite enjoyed it. I enjoyed the customization and reveled in task of making the gun that best suited my play-style. That was one of the major draws of the first game to me, and it was taken out. I also thought that special ammo as a customization for every weapon was better then making it a power, because then you could easily have each gun designed for something different, and the act of changing ammo wouldn't stop you from using another power. It also would allow for a better power to be used instead of the ammo power. Overall, I think that it was no improvement to take away that system, and instead simplified the game too much and made at least that portion of it worse then the first game.
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Grab a Shotgun, Go in Style, Relax and Smile
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$Nirach
Professor of Boozeology!
Don't get me wrong - I liked Mass Effect 1's inventory system, and in some ways, I miss it too. However, I didn't find myself thinking about its lack of presence until I wasn't playing the game.
I understand your point about the ammo changing being irritating as a power, rather than anything else. I'd have preferred that you could at least change the ammo before you went on a mission, but hey. At the same time, I had no issues while playing the game.
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Nothing's broken, it's just functioning differently.
~Insomniac
1Z 2 133+ 4 j00
Agreed.
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